Author Topic: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?  (Read 9786 times)

dragons4life

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"Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« on: September 02, 2016, 07:25:21 pm »
"Download in sequential order" by default as an option?

basically make every download you start, start with download in sequential order?

Nemo

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2016, 09:35:44 pm »
No.
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TheInvoker

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2016, 09:38:10 pm »
He means to create an option to activate (or not) that feature by deafult. you can leave it unchecked if you prefer.

Nemo

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2016, 09:43:13 pm »
Then yes :D.

Read too fast I guess.
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dragons4life

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2016, 06:37:52 am »
Then yes :D.

Read too fast I guess.
Yeah basically, what he said I don't mean make it default globally, but as an option to check or unchecked (opt-in or opt-out), will be cool.

Most of the times now a days I like to download and start downloading the video I am downloading, while it's downloading, I still keep it there to seed because I still need a good ratio.

Switeck

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2016, 10:59:43 am »
Multi-file torrents ironically make a mess of sequential downloading, particularly videos.
With the end of a video file likely sharing a piece with the next file, getting just that one end piece may not be enough to get all the pageframe offsets and other details of the video file to make it playable while it downloads from the beginning.
Sequential downloading is also unworkable if the only seed/peer sources are slow -- you will outrun your download buffer while watching a video and need to pause the video or bad things can happen.
This minimum download speed can be calculated by reading the video file's audio/video codecs and encoding and even reporting that information and other details about your computer to a central repository so that torrent can be reported as stream-able for others.

Lastly, sequential downloading can make the next-to-last pieces (before the very end piece) rarer in the event someone stops seeding after they finish watching the video, since they'll have very little time to share the last few pieces.

dragons4life

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2016, 02:24:22 pm »
Multi-file torrents ironically make a mess of sequential downloading, particularly videos.
With the end of a video file likely sharing a piece with the next file, getting just that one end piece may not be enough to get all the pageframe offsets and other details of the video file to make it playable while it downloads from the beginning.
Sequential downloading is also unworkable if the only seed/peer sources are slow -- you will outrun your download buffer while watching a video and need to pause the video or bad things can happen.
This minimum download speed can be calculated by reading the video file's audio/video codecs and encoding and even reporting that information and other details about your computer to a central repository so that torrent can be reported as stream-able for others.

Lastly, sequential downloading can make the next-to-last pieces (before the very end piece) rarer in the event someone stops seeding after they finish watching the video, since they'll have very little time to share the last few pieces.

Just works for me, apart from sometimes qbittorent not recognizing the right order to download the actual files.

I literally have no clue as to what you are talking or even the issues you are bringing.

KitKat

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 09:37:03 am »
This minimum download speed can be calculated by reading the video file's audio/video codecs and encoding and even reporting that information and other details about your computer to a central repository so that torrent can be reported as stream-able for others.
lolwhat!?

If you're downloading a video and know its duration (whcih you'll know after metadata or just from general information/educated speculation about it..) you can just divide its size in kb by its length in seconds, and if you cant meet that download rate its not streamable, at least for you.
The information needed for this should be known, no need for user stat reporting anywhere unless you're talking about how utorrent determines whats streamable and what isnt, in that case i still believe you're overcomplicating things.
Hell even easier, once duration is known if the torrent will finish before the video would finish playing its 100% streamable..


On topic, i wouldnt mind seeing an option in advanced settings to enable this, but it would need to be disabled by default if we give a damn about swarm health.
Possibly a smart implementation where QBT checks the file types in the torrent (by extension) and then enables sequential if there are media files found && if that option is true.

Eg MyMovie.mp4 would sequentially download, but ubuntu.iso would not.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 09:39:26 am by KitKat »
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Switeck

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 05:25:16 pm »
If you're downloading a video and know its duration (whcih you'll know after metadata or just from general information/educated speculation about it..)
Human readable vs machine readable. qBT has to gather that metadata from somewhere, even if the user already knows the answer.

"you can just divide its size in kb by its length in seconds, and if you cant meet that download rate its not streamable, at least for you."

The math looks simple. Gathering that data and informing others is not as simple to make automated. If it is not made automated and reliable, it will be used badly.

You mention swarm health. Swarm health has to be known to make the process reliable. But that can only be approximated with some level of certainty if lots of data is collected and probably assembled at a central location, presumably the torrent swarm's primary tracker/source server. Or distributed via DHT. Data-collection that has an extra bandwidth/speed cost both for the end users and that central repository.

dragons4life

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2016, 06:48:58 pm »
I honestly don't even understand what he is trying to say still lol.

Is he saying that downloading sequentially is supposed to be bad? I just downloaded around 23 videos all sequentially, nothing bad happened.

Switeck

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2016, 03:55:09 am »
Is he saying that downloading sequentially is supposed to be bad? I just downloaded around 23 videos all sequentially, nothing bad happened.
Yes, I am.
And you probably got all those files on torrents with large numbers of seeds.
Otherwise, nothing bad happened for you...but it may have made things harder for the next few people that come along if you stopped the torrents after completing them.

The problem will be where there's not very many seeds or peers -- either there won't be enough combined download speed to stream the torrent or there will only be enough for just you at the expense of everyone else.
It's still the case that very few have as much upload as the minimal streaming download speed needed.

dragons4life

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 09:11:54 am »
Is he saying that downloading sequentially is supposed to be bad? I just downloaded around 23 videos all sequentially, nothing bad happened.
Yes, I am.
And you probably got all those files on torrents with large numbers of seeds.
Otherwise, nothing bad happened for you...but it may have made things harder for the next few people that come along if you stopped the torrents after completing them.

The problem will be where there's not very many seeds or peers -- either there won't be enough combined download speed to stream the torrent or there will only be enough for just you at the expense of everyone else.
It's still the case that very few have as much upload as the minimal streaming download speed needed.
So umm, all they have to do (if they do have the option to download in sequential order enable) is to right click the torrent and disable it?

I am still not seeing the issue here.

Havokdan

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2016, 11:56:10 am »
Well, see: https://wiki.vuze.com/w/Sequential_downloading_is_bad

Despite being the wiki another customer, deals with the protocol itself. The article explains why it is bad, so it is not standard in most torrent clients, but your request is not to make it qbit default, but simply make it standard for you, then I see no problems.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:58:40 am by Havokdan »

dragons4life

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 12:22:56 pm »
Well, see: https://wiki.vuze.com/w/Sequential_downloading_is_bad

Despite being the wiki another customer, deals with the protocol itself. The article explains why it is bad, so it is not standard in most torrent clients, but your request is not to make it qbit default, but simply make it standard for you, then I see no problems.

It threatens to kill smaller swarms due to piece starvation
- It's like you guys do not realize that people who use this function can seed while downloading or even after finishing downloading.
- Failing to realize that not everyone is gonna be using this feature.
It severely limits the set of peers interested in each other, thus degrades swarm-wide and local performance
-Never seen local performance be worst than if i had just downloaded the file completely.
It gets the client into endgame-mode like conditions towards the end of each file, thus slowing down the download
-has not happened to me

Legit, this swarm piece starvation thing has to be the biggest amount of false information I seen.

I can easily download a 1080p video torrent (5gb) in sequential download, without affecting anyone. exactly after release.
I can still see my connection seeding to other people just fine.


Maybe your connection is really slow? but either way I am not asking for this to be default at all, just asking for an option to enable/disable it to be default.

tl;dr  I still don't see the issue you guys are trying to bring up.

In fact I think partially downloading files is way worst than this.

Switeck

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Re: "Download in sequential order" by default as an option?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2016, 04:33:43 pm »
What's being asked for here is pretty much streaming audio/video files from torrents.

Streaming can be done with "simple" sequential downloading, so long as the 1st and last pieces of the file are big enough to get the critical parts.
It'll work great on most private trackers because they typically have 20+ really fast seeds per every new peer that comes along.
It'll probably work ok on public torrents with lots of seeds and very few peers.
But streaming will fail without warning on many public torrents, even ones that have more seeds than peers...especially if the streamer is firewalled.

A streaming video has to sustain a download speed consistently higher than the playback speed. (barring a large starting buffer and/or lots of pauses)
If it fails to do that, you'll eventually catch up to a piece you haven't downloaded yet even if you have a lot of pieces after the missing one.
Depending on the playback method, a missing piece could result in either a blank screen for a few seconds/minutes (if the file was intially filled with 0's), a portion of another video file previously stored in the same spot (which can be confusing or embarrassing), lots of garbage on the screen, a player crash, or file system/OS crash. Worst-case I can think of (but not likely) -- important accessing files get corrupted during a file system/OS crash...rendering the computer incapable of rebooting until the OS is reinstalled.

Your example:
"1080p video torrent (5gb)"
...Probably needs ~20 mbit/sec upload speed from other seeds/peers to the streamer or you risk failures.
That's a lot more than a single ADSL 2+ or average cable connection has!

Even when a torrent swarm provides that, a streamer has to upload that torrent at least as fast or seed for hours/days after finishing to balance out.

Without safeguards which I've tried to explain in previous posts, people attempting to stream less-busy public torrents will often have silly, spectacular, and ugly failures.